i scanned a letter i received from edwin thiele in 1978. because of its poor condition, the resulting file is very very large.
please accept my apologies.. it's available at:.
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=786664292e4d3db0fc5ca9d455fe63d8.
I scanned a letter I received from Edwin Thiele in 1978. Because of its poor condition, the resulting file is VERY VERY LARGE. Please accept my apologies.
It's available at:
http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=786664292e4d3db0fc5ca9d455fe63d8
and wait for 20 seconds for the "Download" button to appear.
Doug
having a look through the march wt pdf and noticed the graph showing the growth of jws and did a little basic math.
now math was not my strongest subject at school so i can stand some correcting on this if need be... but anyway, a little fun with numbers:.
1970; 1'483'000 is a growth of about 390% (av 19.5% per year).
Aussie Oz,
No problems. The WTS makes noises about their figures, but sober analysis shows that when compared with the natural increase of the world's population, the WTS is treading water, maybe going backwards.
Their witnessing work is ineffective, with many hours spent per baptism, while their increases include baptisms within JW families, namely their own children.
I would like to get hold of the latest detailed figures and also the figures for the previous year. How can I get them? I would enjoy doing some analysis.
Doug
having a look through the march wt pdf and noticed the graph showing the growth of jws and did a little basic math.
now math was not my strongest subject at school so i can stand some correcting on this if need be... but anyway, a little fun with numbers:.
1970; 1'483'000 is a growth of about 390% (av 19.5% per year).
The WTS would be absolutely delighted with growth figures like 19.5% and 13.5%, but the maths gives me different figures.
According to my calculations,
1950 (373,000) to 1970 (1,483,000) is an annual compound rate of 7.2% increase
1970 (1,483,000) to 1990 (4,017,000) is a compound rate of 5.1% increase;
1990 (4,017,000) to 2009 (7,313,000) is a compound rate of 3.2% increase.
As an approximate verification, a compound rate of 7.2% should see a doubling every 10 years, so after 20 years we should see a doubling of the 10-year figure, which would be four times the initial figure.
Long-term figures hide important details. The 1950s, following WW2, was a golden era for the WTS. But the first half of the 1960s saw a dramatic slowing in growth; by 1965 it was 3.2% and the following year it was 2.4%.
Then in 1966, the WTS announced the significance year 1975. By 1969, they experienced an increase of over 10%, and in 1974 they grew by 13.5%. But in 1976 and 1977, they experienced an equally humiliating downturn, with further decreases in the succeeding years.
Doug
i have placed my new study into the babylonian exile at.
http://www.jwstudies.com/they_would_not_listen_version_1.pdf.
when i set out on the journey of writing this study, i was determined that i would not discuss chronologies or dating systems.
Atlantis and bohm,
Thank you.
I know there will be things in there that you will not fully agree with, and that's ok by me. Indeed, I expect every reader will disagree with some things I have written there. It's important that each of us remains true to our own genuinely-held convictions, and not have them forced upon us in a dictatorial fashion. We can agree to disagree, yet remain agreeable to one another, using our differences to the benefit of each. All I ask is that you check for yourself, and be comfortable with your own conclusions. I hope I provide a trigger that helps.
It took me some four years of thinking, several false starts and then 4 months of intensive research and writing. Having no editor or proof reader, I am relying on people to point out mistakes in spelling and grammar as well as in reasoning, interpretation and facts.
I provided reasonably long readings from my sources. I did this so that my Study would be a resource to aid in a reader's personal ongoing research. I consider the books I used as conventional works, representing mainstream Christian and Jewish scholarship. I recommend that anyone wishing to confirm or deny my material that they consult these resources and similar ones. I would like to know of any other resources similar in scholarship to those I used.
I welcome comments and criticisms, so that Version 2 will be an improvement. When that happens, I will let you know.
Doug
i have placed my new study into the babylonian exile at.
http://www.jwstudies.com/they_would_not_listen_version_1.pdf.
when i set out on the journey of writing this study, i was determined that i would not discuss chronologies or dating systems.
I have placed my new Study into the Babylonian Exile at http://www.jwstudies.com/They_would_not_listen_Version_1.pdf
When I set out on the journey of writing this Study, I was determined that I would not discuss chronologies or dating systems. Also, even though the subject is of fundamental significance to the WTS/GB/JWs, I was not going to make them the focus nor would it be a tit-for-tat point-scoring exercise of “I’m right/You’re wrong”. Nevertheless, since it is of such importance to that group, my Study naturally would impact them in some way or other.
I wanted this to be a journey of positive discovery, and in the end I learned an awful lot. The study took me to places I had not previously considered, and it told me things I had never thought about.
In the end, I do briefly highlight the difficulties that face the WTS/GB/JW, but this is not my focus of my Study.
I discovered that understanding the Exile gives me a better understanding of their Scripture, for so much of the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) is directly affected by the Exile.
I guarantee that every reader will learn something from the Study. I have designed it so that it is a resource, rather than a portrayal of my conclusions.
Since this is a new publication, I need corrections and additional relevant information, so that I can improve this Study. But I retain the right to decide what I accept.
My email address is available on the Study. I have been interested in this activity since the mid-1960s, and I have never betrayed a confidence, so please feel comfortable sending me an email.
I do not expect prompt responses, so I shall mention it again in say a month, to stimulate any responses.
Doug
sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.
daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.
paul.
Lars,
I fully understand your difficulty. The simple fact is that the Jews had to keep copying their scrolls because of the nature of the base material. It had a finite life. And in copying the material, the later redactors were quite prepared to amend the texts to suit their current understandings; they also added comments that later editors incorporated into the text.
The Bible is a collection of human books, where each was written by people for their own immediate community. It is important to know when a book was written, and if possible to determine their motives, and likewise with subsequent editors. Given that it is an impossible task to unscramble the omelet, caution must be exercised when drawing conclusions.
God did not write the books of the Bible; these writers were not manifestations of the divine. Only God is sacred, books are not sacred. Only God is to be worshiped and adored; not a collection of books.
That alterations were made by the Jews is well known, with plenty of evidence available. One need only look at the LXX and MT variants at Jeremiah.
Also, the manner in which the Jews treated their history is also well known, as is the reason for their actions.
The clay tablets - no, not sacred - lay in the ground untouched. So they provide an accurate record of what that group thought at the time they prepared a tablet. With so many thousands of these untouched tablets available, it is possible to recreate their contemporary scenes.
I can fully understand why these facts are uncomfortable for you.
Doug
ezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).
i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.
and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).
When you go to:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-witness/TBJHOKIJBBFLP99EO/p55#lastPost
you will arrive at the "last post" of a long-running debate between Alan and Thirdwitness (and his ilk) on this very subject.
You will need to back-peddle ("prev post") to locate where the debate on that aspect commenced.
Doug
in the recent thread about 'millions now living may/will never die', purplesofa said that the wts changed wording on watchtowers between magazine and bound volume.
i'd be interested to see some examples please!
this could be very useful to help someone i know see they are fallible.
King,
I know that the following is not exactly what you are looking for, but you might find it handy in the scheme of things:
http://www.jwstudies.com/Changed_MD_and_SS_words.pdf
Doug
sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.
daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.
paul.
Maybe, just maybe the people who wrote the book of Daniel "took" the word that Jeremiah used for "fulfilled" and "completed" ("male") and then reapplied it to suit their own ends. Just the way they got Gabriel to reapply the 70 years to become 70 heptads.
Doug
sorry to rehash an old topic.. in the first year of his reign, i, daniel, understood from the scriptures, according to the word of the lord given to jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of jerusalem would last seventy years.
daniel is clearly speaking of jeremiah 25, but here he speaks of the desolation of jerusalem, rather than a babylonian dominance of jeremiah.. so how does daniel fit in with a 587/6 date for the destruction of jerusalem and the dominance of the babylonian empire refered to in jeremiah?.
paul.
An alternative and probably more reasonable resolution relates to the authorship of Daniel. Nowhere does Jeremiah state that Jerusalem was to be devastated for seventy years. Jeremiah says there would be “servitude” to Babylon (25:11) for seventy years and that the Lord would allow them to return when The Seventy Years had ended (“were completed”: 29:10).
If Daniel claims that Jeremiah said Jerusalem would be devastated for 70 years, then the writers of the book of Daniel got it wrong. The mistake could have been accidental or it could have been deliberate. This would be understandable if the generally accepted date of authorship of 167-164 BCE for the book of Daniel is correct. The writers either misread Jeremiah or they wished to misrepresent it in order to influence their contemporary audience. The manipulation of history to suit a contemporary need was not uncommon at that time.
The agrarian community was not literate. Written communication was employed by the urban elite, who naturally had the scribes. So there was probably little likelihood of the farmers and their ilk checking on the veracity of what the priests told them.
The book of Daniel is mystical in nature, with dreams being interpreted, unnatural occurrences (fire not burning, lions not eating), and Daniel is not a typical prophet, in that he did not speak to the people of God. The word “understand” (biyn) at Daniel 2 implies a spiritual comprehension, which is borne out shortly afterwards when the 70 years are reinterpreted to contain a spiritual meaning of 70 heptads.
One could reason that the writers of Daniel reinterpreted Jeremiah’s 70 years to make them run down to their own time by drawing in (conflating) the “seven times” from Leviticus 26:18,21,24,28.
This action of conflation was also taken by the writer of the books of 2 Chronicles 36:21 when he pulled in Leviticus 26:31-44 because Jeremiah did not say what he wanted Jeremiah to say. The Chronicler lived at least 200 years after Babylon fell. It is not beyond possibility that these later writers wrote the 26th chapter of Leviticus at the same time.
Doug
